Follow The Brand Podcast with Host Grant McGaugh

Brand Transgressions: Navigating the Path from Crisis to Comeback with Shailendra and Shalini Jain

• Grant McGaugh CEO 5 STAR BDM • Season 7 • Episode 22

Share episode

Send us a text

Ever wondered why some brands bounce back from crises while others crumble? Join us as we unravel the psychology behind consumer behavior and brand loyalty with the esteemed Dr. Shelly Jain and Dr. Shalini Jain. Our enlightening discussion includes gripping real-life stories and research, shedding light on the importance of effective crisis management. We revisit Tylenol's remarkable handling of a severe crisis in the 1980s, showcasing how transparency and prioritizing customer safety can make or break a brand's reputation.

I'd like you to please discover how Starbucks turned a potentially devastating incident in 2019 into a beacon of corporate integrity. The company's swift and sincere actions, including a heartfelt apology and extensive diversity training, led by CEO Kevin Johnson, transformed the brand's image and set a new standard for crisis management. You can learn about the eight guiding principles for handling brand transgressions with integrity, emphasizing the critical roles of transparency, accountability, and placing principles above profit.

Finally, we navigate the intersection of business ethics and social responsibility, using Nike's journey as a pivotal case study. Dr. Shelly and Dr. Shalini Jain highlight the evolving landscape of ethics education in business schools, stressing the need to integrate ethical considerations across all business disciplines. Future leaders must be equipped to balance profit with social impact, ensuring that ethical practices lead to sustainable success. This thought-provoking conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in the transformative power of ethics in business.

For those interested in buying a copy, here is the link to the publisher's website:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781501517334/html

Also, the 50% off discount code (on the publisher's website above) is DGBSS24.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Follow The Brand! We hope you enjoyed learning about the latest marketing trends and strategies in Personal Branding, Business and Career Development, Financial Empowerment, Technology Innovation, and Executive Presence. To keep up with the latest insights and updates from us, be sure to follow us at 5starbdm.com. See you next time on Follow The Brand!

Speaker 1:

Welcome to another episode of Follow the Brand. I am your host, grant McGaughan, ceo of 5 Star BDM, a 5 Star personal branding and business development company. I want to take you on a journey that takes another deep dive into the world of personal branding and business development, using compelling personal story, business conversations and tips to improve your personal brand. By listening to the Follow the Brand podcast series, you will be able to differentiate yourself from the competition and allow you to build trust with prospective clients and employers. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Make it one that will set you apart, build trust and reflect who you are. Developing your five-star personal brand is a great way to demonstrate your skills and knowledge. If you have any questions from me or my guests, please email me. At. Grantmcgaw spelled M-C-G-A-U-G-H at 5starbdm B for brand, d for development, m for masterscom. Now let's begin with our next five-star episode on Follow the Brand. Welcome to the Follow Brand Podcast. I am your host, grant McGaugh, ceo of Five Star BDM, where we help you to build a five-star brand that people will follow. Today, we have an episode that will not only make you think but feel and maybe even rethink everything you knew about trust, loyalty and what it means to be a brand in the 21st century. Imagine this you spent years, maybe decades, building a brand that people know, love and trust. Your logo isn't just a symbol. It is a promise. People know love and trust. Your logo isn't just a symbol. It is a promise, a connection, a part of people's lives. But what happens when that trust is shattered in an instant, when a single misstep, or maybe a series of them, threatens to undo everything you have worked for? This is the world of brand transgression, and today we are not just scratching the surface. We are diving headfirst into it with the two most brilliant minds in the field. Our guests today are not just academics in the field. Our guests today are not just academics. They're pioneers, storytellers and truth seekers who have dedicated their careers to understanding the psychology behind consumer behavior and the delicate dance of brand loyalty.

Speaker 1:

First up, we have Dr Shelley Jane, who is not only the Brett Wheat Endowed Professor of Marketing and International Business at the University of Washington, but also a man whose research spans the globe, offering insights that have transformed how companies like Boeing, microsoft and 3M manage their brand. Shelly has over 70 publications under his belt and is the co-author of the game-changing book Managing Brand Translations Eight Principles to Transform your Brand. So get ready, because he is here to share not just knowledge but stories that will resonate with anyone who's ever cared about a brand. And that's not all. Joining Shelly is his incredible wife and co-author in Pertinent Crime, dr Shalini Jain, and Associate Professor of Management and the inaugural Director of Diversity, equity and inclusion at the University of Washington Tacoma. Shalini's work is all about the human side of business gender representation, ethics, corporate social responsibility and how companies can and should do better, do better. She is a champion for fairness, and her research has sparked conversations in boardrooms and classrooms alike.

Speaker 1:

Now here is a fun fact. Did you know that Tylenol yes, the everyday pain reliever almost lost everything in the 1980s due to a massive crisis involving cyanide-laced capsules. And what did they do? They acted fast, they communicated openly and they put people before profits. And guess what? They not only survived, but came out stronger. And today Shelly and Shalini are going to break down why some brands recover from such transgressions while others crumble.

Speaker 1:

This episode is more than just theory. It is packed with real-world examples, emotional rollercoasters and the kind of insights that might just save your brand one day. So buckle up, because we are about to embark on a journey through the highs and lows of branding, guided by two experts who have seen it all, and whether you are a business owner, a brand manager or just someone who loves a good comeback story, this episode is for you. So let's get started on the Follow Brand Podcast, where we are building a five-star brand that you can follow. Welcome everybody to the Follow Brand Podcast.

Speaker 1:

This is Grant McGaugh, and I get to go to my favorite place. What are my favorite places? I used to go to Seattle all the time, especially when I worked at this previous company that I was out in Seattle, loved the Northwest, and then I got a chance then to talk to two individuals who live on Tacoma, washington, and we, you know, we had to have this conversation and he just told me you know we're going to talk about brand transgression. That's what this is all about. But he just gave me some news that I'm shocked about. Is that? You know, you go me some news that I'm shocked about? You go to Seattle and everyone knows this one spot. You go to this place called Pike, and Pike has, you know, they throw the fish. Everybody knows this. Right, you throw the fish. Everybody's like, wow, you gotta go there. He's just following me. I think I'm gonna stop that Boom.

Speaker 1:

Before I go any further, I want to introduce you to the James. We've got Shelly and we've got Shalini. Jane, You're going to correct me if I did that wrong, but you're going to help me with that. I want you both to introduce yourselves and we're going to have a candid conversation about, I think, two words if not's what people understand, brand transgression and what that is all about. So, shaila, you want to go first.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I'm going first. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, grant, for having us on this podcast, really really honored and excited to be here. So I'm a professor of marketing and international business at the University of Washington, at Foster School of Business in Seattle, and I've been in academia now for about 30 years, after I did my PhD, and I do work in consumer psychology and brand strategy and I teach MBAs for the most part executive MBAs and daytime and part-time MBAs and before I did my PhD, I worked for six years in industry doing sales, brand management and general management and advertising advertising strategy. Before that I got an MBA in India. Before that I got an engineering degree. So life has been really amazing. We are very blessed and grateful that we are here. Over to you, shalini, thank you.

Speaker 3:

Hi, good afternoon. So I'm Shalini Jain. I'm an associate professor of management at the Milgard School of Business University of Washington in Tacoma, and my research is primarily in the areas of ethics, social responsibility, gender equality and things like that. I teach MBAs and undergraduates, and this book is entirely about what I teach my students, and so I'm very excited to talk about this book on brand transgressions.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's jump right in. You just hit it on the head. I mean, first, we've got two educators here and your academics and I love the University of Washington, it's just beautiful the Huskies and the whole nine. So I'm a little biased, you know, but probably a child I love to request. I want to know about brand transgressions and why this is so important and what people need to understand. I just gave a little scenario about what's going on at pike, um, but talk to us about brand transgressions and what led you to write this book so, yeah, go, you're shouting, you want to go?

Speaker 2:

okay. So what led us to write this book was, to be perfectly honest, it was partly covid because we were quarantined at home and we were working, but we said, you know, let's do something which is creating value for our planet and I do work in brand strategy and shalini works in ethics and corporate social responsibility and we found this sweet spot where we can talk about brand transgressions because it relates to brand strategy and it has some serious ethical implications and undertones, and I do some research also in brand transgressions as an academic. So it was a really fortuitous confluence of our research interests, our experience and passion and so on and so forth. So brand transgressions, as we define and we are not the only ones who defined it are basically violations of certain norms or expectations that stakeholders have of brands. So the reason why we think it's an important topic just to exemplify what a brand transgression is, grant right, as we are speaking, there is a huge corporation which is based in Seattle and Chicago called Boeing, which is going through a very, very, very serious turbulence in its existence, and it started in 2018 and 19 when the 2737 aircraft crashed, and thereafter it has been one trouble, one problem after the other for the company.

Speaker 2:

Of course, this is an extreme kind of a transgression where people died and so and our conversation before you started recording specific to the cybersecurity issue sometimes companies don't expect bad things to happen and they happen inadvertently, as we are learning. In boeing's case, it was not inadvertent in the sense that there were certain compromises and decision-making gaps that existed in the company's process which led to these outcomes, which you'll be happy to talk about in a bit. So that's the initial brand transgressions In Europe. You might have heard of Volkswagen, the emissions cheating scandal. That was a volitional transgression. Volkswagen knew about it, what they were doing. And then, closer home, there is Wells Fargo cross-selling scandal, and three, four years back, starbucks had a racial profiling incident in Philadelphia which created a huge amount of uproar and rage. And then, you know, the Me Too movement that we are talking about is a personal transgression where a series of people are being called out for sexual misconduct. So that's really the nature of the problem that we're investigating and how we came together.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's it, I think that's important because I know social impact. And then getting into where brands are today. Some successful brands like they stand for something. You stand for something. It's just not me purchasing a product or service, I'm actually purchasing or investing in an idea, and these things are important. I want to ask Ms Sherry and Jane you know when this happens you get a transgression, something has tarnished your brand, something has happened. What are some of the first steps that that company can do to try to mitigate some of these problems?

Speaker 3:

So that's a great question. And so let's take the example of CrowdStrike. Right, we talked about a potential 20% to 40% drop in stock. We have different reports from different sources. They say Fortune 500 companies have suffered losses estimated at about $5 billion. So this is a transgression which is fairly staggering, you know, from any perspective. And so what's the first thing a company can do? The usual thing that companies tend to do is to deflect, to obfuscate, to lay blame on somebody else, to cover facts. And what we propose the first thing a company should do is to take accountability, which is to do actually that's the second thing. The first thing is to do the right thing. And what is the right thing here? So one can talk about the 40% drop in stock market price, or one can talk about the $5 billion loss of their clients.

Speaker 3:

So it's understandable that the company would like to protect itself, but doing the right thing means to focus first on the victim or the customer this is so important so important and a kind of a gold standard in this in the course of our research, which everybody is familiar with, is the example of tylenol, right when, um, some miscreant uh put in cyanide lace replaced, you know, tylenol and people died and nobody knew what was the source. But what did Tylenol do? How do we protect people? That was the first question, and the second question was how do we protect our brand? So, even though they didn't know what happened, they went on the media in a very unprecedented fashion, where the CEO repeatedly appeared and made announcements this has happened, please don't consume Tylenol. They stopped advertising, they even withdrew, took Tylenol off the shelves, and this was a very you know, it was standard setting at that time and so I think so, when I was looking at the coverage on CrowdStrike, the CEO did come out and take accountability.

Speaker 3:

He did the right thing and he said, yes, this was a mistake that has been done on our part, and so that was the first thing. Then the second step, or a second principle that we talk about, is to take accountability Right. So it's very easy to say, oh, microsoft, some other partner, some vendor, some supplier, they were responsible, but ultimately it's your company and whoever you associate with, we have to take ownership for that. So Kelly mentioned Volkswagen. They actually blamed the whole world except themselves. Blamed the whole world except themselves. It was a few rogue engineers and it was, you know. Nobody took ownership. But here, actually, I was reading in the media that not only the CEO but the top executives of CrowdStrike, particularly the chief security officer, you know went all out in media and publicly, proactively, acknowledged that this transgression has taken place.

Speaker 1:

I listen to that and I put myself in the shoes of the CEO or even in the C-suite of the companies that have these kinds of things happen. And I want to ask this to Shelley, because if I'm sitting there, I'm that CEO, I'm that board I got to go to, I got stockholders and that I just had a 50, 60% drop in stock. Why billion? You know? First I got to beat myself up off the floor because this is like really falling off of a cliff. This is falling off a cliff. You've got a beautiful brand, you've got a beautiful product. No one saw this coming. Bam, just like that lightning strikes. You're going to lose $5 billion. Now you've got to get out and get out in front of this. What are some strategies that you can speak to to help organizations that have these unprecedented issues occur, and best practices in that area?

Speaker 2:

Thank you, grant. Yeah, so these things are the event that we're talking about are extremely rare, but they are devastating if they're not handled carefully. So, as Shalini mentioned, the first thing that the senior leadership has already done is to take full accountability and responsibility for the problem in public, in the media, because this is the way they absolve the users from creating an alternative narrative. That's very, very important, right? And so they said yes, we were at fault, we apologize, and they've done it multiple times. So let me share with you the story of Starbucks grant, which happened in Philadelphia, which is not, as, in some ways, as devastating as outage and you know economies being, you know, up for grabs kind of stuff or stock price falling by $5, $10 billion, but it is still a pretty serious situation.

Speaker 2:

In 2019, there were two young Black customers in Philadelphia who did not place an order for coffee for a very, very long time, and the barista came to them two, three times and said will you please place an order? Will you please place an order? And they said we, you please place an order? Will you please place an order? And they said we are waiting for another associate. And after some time, the barista called the cops on them and it was two people, it was two customers. It was in a small Philadelphia outlet. Some people would have said come on, you know it's a big deal, you know, kind of sort of. But the way Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson responded is what we documented in the book, which is a modern day gold template in our opinion. So as soon as this happened, as soon as Kevin Johnson learned about it, between that day and two more days, he apologized six times, including on Facebook, including on TV, on company's website, again and again and again, he apologized. Next day he flew to Philadelphia. Next day he flew to Philadelphia and he met these two young men these men were 24, 25 years old, you know and so he met them personally. He apologized to them and then, in terms of taking accountability, he absolved the barista. He said the buck stops with me. I think this was a real mature way to handle the situation. It was easy for the CEO to say, oh, the barista didn't do right, we'll take care of it and fire the barista, or something of that sort. I think the company showed its character and integrity when the CEO said I'm responsible. The company showed its character and integrity when the CEO said I'm responsible. Then he settled privately with the two customers. He spoke to the community in Philadelphia which was really raging because of the situation. Then I think what they did was just terrific they closed down all their 8,000 plus outlets for diversity and equity training at a cost of something like $16, $17 million for a week.

Speaker 2:

So this example tells us what it means to do the right thing, which is the customers are hurt, they are feeling victimized. Take care of them. Their hurt is important rather than your pain as a brand. Number one. Number two act with lightning speed, which he did. Number three take accountability, which he did. Number four do restitution in some form or the other, which he did. At the end of the day, the whole brand was transformed. It didn't just recover, it became a better brand. So, coming back to your example, we think the company has started right by apologizing to all its customers who have been victimized by this unintended transgression. So they have taken accountability, they have taken ownership. Now we think it's an opportunity for the company to transform the organization fundamentally and create even more guardrails. Probably, you know, take a leap in terms of security management, which this company didn't imagine was possible. So this is an opportunity where the company can convert this problem into a huge opportunity.

Speaker 1:

I think you're right and it's a great textbook lesson what you can do. Communication is key. Getting out in front of this I think Shalini also mentioned that. I want to ask her you wrote this book together, right? So you mentioned eight principles. If you follow these eight principles, you're going to be out in front of some of these situations because, as everyone knows, it takes years to build your brand and this is your reputation in the market and you've built it up. You've a significant amount of money and resources that are into it, but yet, just like we just learned, in a moment's notice your brand could be tarnished and it can explode, and it could take years again to rebuild that trust. As you talked about with Talano, people probably don't remember that half the time it would happen with some ice cream manufacturers as well. There was tainted ice cream and you hear about these things from time to time, but it takes time to reestablish that brand. So talk to us a little bit about these eight principles that a lot of our audience my audience can pay attention to and apply, ready to elevate your brand with five-star impact.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Final Brand Podcast, your gateway to exceptional personal growth and innovative business strategies. Join me as I unveil the insider strategies of industry pioneers and branding experts. Discover how to supercharge your business development. Harness the power of AI for growth and sculpt a personal brand that stands out in the crowd. Transform ambition into achievement. Explore more at FirestarBDMcom for a wealth of resources. Ignite your journey with our brave brand blueprint and begin crafting your standout Firestar teacher today.

Speaker 3:

So we've mentioned, you know, about three of them. So our first principle is about doing the right thing. The second principle is about taking accountability right. The third is to act with lightning speed. So we are in an age of digital democracy and you know minutes matter. So if Boeing, for example, took a month to apologize, that is, in this day and age, a pretty transgression on a transgression, if I may say so. Right.

Speaker 3:

So then, communication you mentioned to do that transparently, often on multiple channels is a very important thing to keep, because that demonstrates a commitment to keep all stakeholders informed, no-transcript, and that it's a very tough call because, see, we are in business to make profit. But you know there's a lot of research out there that the gen z and you know, young customers 90 of them don't buy from brands that don't demonstrate value or have social impact. They are also future workforce for all of these corporations and they are actively choosing not to work for corporations without conscience and they have huge spending power, and so these are customers that cannot be ignored by any business. So placing principal over profit is well, you know our fifth, then the sixth one, which is probably related more to individuals, but I think applies even to companies.

Speaker 3:

It is like treating each life with dignity, which we saw in the case of Starbucks.

Speaker 3:

They were two youths, but they were treated with dignity, you know, and we have innumerable examples of where that hasn't happened, for example, the United Airlines case where a passenger was bloodied and taken off the aircraft with a broken jaw so that his fully paid seat could be given to a crew member, and then that was actually defended by united airlines as the only thing to do.

Speaker 3:

And then later, when they saw that stock price fall to the through the floor is when they regrouped and said oh, this was you know. So treating each life with dignity is a very key factor for brands to maintain the reputation that they themselves have so painstakingly built over time. And then, as we have been talking, leadership sets the tone. So if you are expecting frontline or middle managers to do the right thing, that's not going to happen. It has to begin from the top, because that's from where it trickles down all the way, and the last that kind of wraps all of this up is building brand authenticity right, which means walking the talk, not only when you're transgressed, but just part of standard business practice, where all of these principles are incorporated in standard business operations.

Speaker 1:

This is so important and this reminds me I want to ask this question as I think it through, because this happened in our society and I think it's close to where you both live the Nike Corporation, right, nike Corporation, and what happened in the NFL a few years back with the San Francisco 49ers Colin Kaepernick, right and the whole kneeling there was a big melee and everybody began you know, for against? It was just a huge thing. And then Nike said you know what, we're not going to support Colin Kaepernick I think he had a deal with them at the time. We're not going to sell his jersey, we're not going to do anything like that. And then, after a few months, I think and I could be wrong, but it seemed like that they came back to the table with a whole different change in attitude.

Speaker 1:

Hey, we're going to go ahead and support Joe Jafferty and we like what he's doing and we're not going to pull his merchandise from our shelves. We're going to go ahead and go forward with that. And some part to me thinks that, to your point, profit had something to do with that. Because and I'll be very frank about this 50-year-old white males, who are probably on that stockholder board, don't buy Nike shoes. They don't buy that type of merchandise. The younger generation, to your point, that are athletic, they're out there, they're doing their thing, they're the one that are consuming the product, they're consuming the services, they're consuming the brand. So what are you really saying? Like, hey, you know what? Just because you know that older generation may not, you know, agree with some of the things that were happening. The people that consume my services and my products, I need to serve them and that's important to me. So I want to ask and this is for both of you how do you feel about that?

Speaker 2:

So let me go, is that okay, shalini? So Colin Kaepernick's case is quite interesting and I think you have your facts pretty well lined up, frankly. And so Nike's experience with social activism-based campaigns has been almost unconditionally positive in terms of bottom line. So Nike has taken up the causes for ageism, for gender equality, for LGBTQ equality and respect, and for Colin Kaepernick in specific and that whole, you know, the controversial campaign and so on and so forth. So there is data that shows every time Nike had a campaign of the sort which was potentially polarizing led to increased sales, increased profits and increased market share.

Speaker 2:

So probably, you know, a cynic might say, oh, they're doing this to make money. They probably are. You know, this corporation is a for-profit corporation and good for them. They need to make money, otherwise, if corporations don't make money, they don't survive, they are not competitive, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the economists will say that a corporation is owned by its shareholders. Therefore, shareholder value maximization is critical and we understand that logic and we are not dissing it at all. So the cynics might say that, but I think what we are saying is if you can stick to a principle of treating each life with dignity and make money in the process, that's great. We are not saying you should compromise on your profit. We are saying, yeah, if you can do both, that's wonderful.

Speaker 2:

But when the rubber hits the road, when it's trial, when it is crunch time, that is when the character and integrity of the brand is revealed. And those moments are what we call really serious transgressions. And at that time we encourage corporations to put principle above profit of it. And Tylenol's example is really amazing because they spent close to $300 million at today's prices in 1982 when the cyanide in Tylenol case happened. $300 million with no sense of what will happen at the end of spending so much money. And James Burke fought tooth and nail with his shareholders saying we need to do this, we have to protect the people, we have to protect the people.

Speaker 2:

And about six, seven months after the transgression, the share of the brand went from 37% to 48%. So, yeah, we did not have an immediate sense of what will be the financial outcome, but the company profited from it at the end of the day. So we have an intuition in the book that principle of a profit will see good outcomes for the company. So we think Nike is doing fine. I believe Colin Kaepernick's career got really hammered after that whole campaign, unfortunately. But I think Nike's strategy is consistent with its brand. They always do social activism-based campaigns. That is the association with the brand, and this was another one which was pretty much what Nike did Interesting Do you have any input on that, Jalini?

Speaker 3:

So I would say Nike is actually again a poster child of naming and shaming by the public. It was the first company to be called out in the 1990s, right when informed and concerned citizens raised voice against sweatshops. Nike is not the only company on the planet that runs sweatshops, but Nike was targeted because it was the largest, most prominent and well-known company on the planet. And Nike was consistently targeted for 20 years for its sweatshops till it transformed and became a gold standard in how it runs its supply chain and the conditions. So and Nike is also a leader Shelley mentioned in social activism I would say Colin Kaepernick's case.

Speaker 3:

You know, everybody makes mistakes. They miscalculated whatever that miscalculation was, but they regrouped, maybe too late, it had its implications, but Nike actually has learned its lesson pretty well and I think the fact that social activism is such an integral part of its branding suggests that it does seek to value principle over profit, to treat lives with dignity. Of course, we must remember that it's being held accountable for 700 suppliers in different parts of the world and, yes, it must use its economic influence to get better working conditions, but it doesn't have complete control to do so. But it is still, I think, considered a gold standard in how it has improved the working conditions of its supply chain.

Speaker 1:

I'd like both of you really very good insights into that, and what I've learned from talking to both of you is that brands have a social responsibility, Whether they realize it or not. It's not just responsibility to their shareholders, stakeholders, everyone else. You have a social responsibility for what you represent in the community and if something does go wrong that maybe it's not directly your fault, but yet you're implicated in this, you have the responsibility to get out in front of it. I think that's what I got out of this whole discussion. Before I leave both of you, I want you to view the mic and think about how because you both are educated and I want you to talk to us about the students that you have today and what their interests are and how they may be different from how it was 10, 20, 30 years ago and what our business community should really understand from that. And I started with Shelly the first time. I'm going to go back to Shalini this time.

Speaker 3:

Oh me, first You're, first. I've been teaching for about 10 years and I think ours is one of the few business schools where ethics and social responsibility is a core course and so it's a required course to get a degree. And what I teach my students through all of these case studies and we do plenty of those is that the current generation has been, you know, I guess, insensitivity and lack of ethics is baked into normal functioning in business, and so there's almost a desensitization in business on social responsibility or doing the right thing. And I have a wide range of students. So when we talk about a case, the first question that comes up is okay, what was the drop in the stock price? Right? And then how long did it take to recover? So OK, that was a blip. Now the stock price is fine, so it's OK to do, you know, whatever transgression that a company may have done.

Speaker 3:

And the other range, increasingly, I'm finding, is that students actually appreciate this discussion. They want it earlier on in the degree degree. They would like it incorporated in almost, you know, every course so that they can think not only of ethics and social responsibility in my course but in marketing and accounting and finance, in, you know it in operations, because this applies everywhere, but it's not discussed as extensively perhaps. And I think that would be a service that we can provide all our future leaders, future business leaders in particular, so that they at least start to look through this lens, because unless you're aware of it, and if the only lens that you're being provided or being offered is that of the profit lens, then decision-making gets skewed in that direction and then we begin to maybe cut corners when we are in want.

Speaker 1:

I agree. This is important, Shelley. Why don't you get your perspective?

Speaker 2:

I really don't have anything to add because I think what Shalini said perfectly mirrors my experience as well. The only wrinkle that I'd like to add is that I've taught at multiple business schools. So I've taught at multiple business schools, starting with the University of Rochester, then Cornell Indiana and now at the University of Washington. So I see some differences in terms of the pedagogical lens that is used in the MBA programs at these schools. So Rochester Simon School is a very economics heavy school, so they want to inculcate in students everything from an economics lens, inculcate in students everything from an economics lens. Indiana University is a lot more balanced, while Foster School has also a strong economics focus, but it also tries pretty hard to balance. So my sense is that schools my experience is schools which are deeply into the economics mindset right and nothing is right or wrong about it. I'm not making any judgment about it. They are, in my limited experience, the profit-maximizing principle-led schools.

Speaker 2:

And when I did my class I remember in Rochester on ethics and marketing or lack of it sometimes and I took students pretty much head-on in class for about 45 minutes. I was just asking them questions. Okay, suppose your profits are hurting, but here is another alternative. You know, some people are hurting. Which one will you choose? And it was an aha moment for the entire class. I could see how their eyes were sparkling and they had never thought about these issues. They had never thought about these issues.

Speaker 2:

And another experience I've had, which is at foster school, is that if I bring ethical questions in class, sometimes the students push back, and just like Shalini's experience. And the reason they push back is because I think they think ethical decision making is going to compromise profit. That's their fundamental lens through which they come. And so I've been reading papers that show that when companies follow ethical principles, they become more sustainable, they become more CSR-oriented, there's more diversity in the organization, and so on and so forth, they achieve better financial outcomes.

Speaker 2:

Because what I tell myself is if I keep pushing, you know you need to think social, you need to think social, you need to think social, you need to think social, you need to think social from a societal welfare viewpoint. I'm not making a lot of headway, you know, because there's deep engrainment, as Shalini said, of this profit, profit, profit. But when I bring in this perspective, you know, if you do good, you will be better off financially. That seems to resonate and that seems to bring both the perspectives together so that they are not in conflict with each other. You know, though, shalini takes.

Speaker 2:

What she shared with me is that she takes it head on, and this is really cool, and her experience is that students really like that, that challenge, you know. So that's my experience, grant, and I think the needle has moved to some extent where today's students are a lot more conscious and sensitive about CSR, about ethics, about sustainability, about diversity and so on and so forth. But you know, we'll see what happens in the next five, ten years and how the world evolves. It's an interesting time we are living in.

Speaker 1:

It is because the next generation has to take their state and their mindset. Their experience is going to be different from those who lead now because of their upbringing and what they've been exposed to. So it's interesting to understand what they're sensitive to and what they're desensitized to and where that all goes in. But I'm so glad we have to have the voice to let them know. You know the results of different mindsets and what that looks like. You gave us great examples of what, if you were in case Boeing and it took you months to run a gating firm, what's the results? Right? Or, case in point, now we're looking at what Nike has done and then you're like, hey, this is how they handled that situation. So you're giving us some great case studies to take a look at these certain things and understanding that profit is always good. You have to have that, but it's not the goal.

Speaker 1:

You know what is your goal as a business Now? Accumulating. This is my viewpoint. Accumulate a bunch of wealth, great right. But if you're on a private island, well, what good is that right? Those resources won't help you. You know so. But if you are doing something that has a great impact in the world and oh, by the way. We all get enriched from that. I think that's a good thing. So we need to keep that focus of what we're doing and why we're doing it, what's the passion behind it, and then do something. That's great. You, you two, are doing a great service of educating our young people who are going to take on leadership roles and then, from their lens, they're going to have to make decisions, and I really like it. So let us know how to get a hold of your book and if you're going to do any book signings or you're going to do any talks or anything like that, let us know about that so our audience can engage.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much. Yes, it's available on Amazon already. It has been launched and we will keep you posted on any book signings that we do book signings that we do.

Speaker 2:

I know this sounds like a pitch, but, Grant, I will send you on LinkedIn a publisher's code which gives the buyer 50% off. I just wanted to let you know. They're promoting the book quite heavily, so I'll send you that code on LinkedIn and you're free to use it yourself or anybody else. Whoever you want to send it, it's free to use. But the only thing is, of course, in US we don't have to worry about, but internationally. I've sent it to a lot of people. If they can't deal in euro and dollar currencies, then they can't use it, but otherwise I'll send you that code for what it's worth Give us the name of the book again.

Speaker 1:

I know people are up there like I've got to Google it now.

Speaker 3:

Cherry, do you have a visual?

Speaker 2:

Okay, I'll try to show you that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah sure, it's called Brand Transgression Management.

Speaker 2:

Eight Principles Managing Brand Transgressions. There you go Eight Principles to Transform your Brand and Grant, if you send me your address. We have a small publicity company which is helping us who got us this podcast. We will request them to send you a complimentary copy and we would love for you to read it and send feedback. You know, because we are not. We know that some people will be challenged by the principles that we are promulgating there.

Speaker 1:

For sure, and that's good. That's good. We want challenge. We can't keep doing the status quo. There's a reason, there's a passion behind why you wrote this book and what you feel will be impactful as the people move forward and consume the information and can do different things. I want to thank both of you for being on Follow the Brand. This is wonderful. This is what this is all about your entire audience. They can tune in to all the episodes. They're very similar to this. There's about 180 episodes of many different topics with great people like the James, who just told us a lot of different great things, and I really, really appreciate that. And they can go to www.5starcom. That is B for brand, D for development and for masterscom. I want to thank you both again for being on the show.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, Grant Thank you Grant, thank you, Grant More success to you. Thank you, bye-bye. Thank you Appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us on the Follow Brand Podcast. Big thanks to Full Effect Productions for their incredible support on each and every episode. Now the journey continues on our YouTube channel. Follow Brand TV Series. Dive into exclusive interviews, extended content and bonus insights that will fuel your success. Subscribe now and be a part of our growing community sharing and learning together. Explore, engage and elevate at Follow Brand TV series on YouTube. Stay connected, stay inspired. Till next time, we will continue building a five-star brand that you can follow.