Follow The Brand Podcast with Host Grant McGaugh

From Imposter Syndrome to Impact: The Leadership Lessons You Need to Hear with Dr. Sandra Dunbar-Smalley

• Grant McGaugh CEO 5 STAR BDM • Season 3 • Episode 28

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Unlock the secrets of overcoming life's challenges through the lens of occupational therapy with our distinguished guest, Dr. Sandra Dunbar-Smalley, Chief Learning Officer for AdventHealth University and the AdventHealth organization. Discover how Sandra combines her extensive expertise in occupational therapy with her role as an executive coach, helping people reclaim their daily functions and navigate career transitions. From the simple acts of brushing teeth to the complexities of driving, learn how occupational therapy empowers individuals to engage in meaningful activities after life-altering events. Sandra reveals the mental barriers we often face, such as imposter syndrome, and offers guidance on aligning personal aspirations with professional growth.

In our conversation, we unravel the essence of leadership beyond traditional authority, exploring how continuous learning, emotional intelligence, and self-awareness contribute to impactful influence. Sandra shares insights on how introverts can thrive in leadership roles by stepping outside their comfort zones and emphasizes the importance of building strong relationships. We also reflect on the heartwarming stories of listeners transformed by the show's insights, underscoring the profound impact media can have on personal and professional lives. Join us in celebrating the journey of growth and gratitude as we continue to make a difference one episode at a time.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Follow The Brand! We hope you enjoyed learning about the latest marketing trends and strategies in Personal Branding, Business and Career Development, Financial Empowerment, Technology Innovation, and Executive Presence. To keep up with the latest insights and updates from us, be sure to follow us at 5starbdm.com. See you next time on Follow The Brand!

Speaker 1:

Welcome everybody to the Follow Brand Podcast. We are going to take this on the way to Central Florida in Orlando. I love Orlando. I always like going there. I've had great experiences there. Here we are right now in what we call the winter. Now the winter in Orlando and South Florida, where I am, lasts about three days. So this is one of the days of winter and that's why, you know, I've got my jacket and suit on. She's got a little turtleneck on. He's like that doesn't look like Orlando Florida, but it is. It is Orlando Florida. We're going to have a candid conversation with Sandra Dunbar. She's talking to us about occupational therapy. A lot of people have heard about therapy and this and that, but occupational therapy is a little bit different and she does it for hospital systems and helps them and their people to get aligned with their career trajectory. So, sandy, would you like to introduce yourself?

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you so much, Grant. I am Sandy Dunbar-Smalley and I am currently the Chief Learning Officer for AdventHealth University and AdventHealth organization. We're now 100,000 employees, so Chief Learning Officer spans beyond the university to the entire organization organization. But I'm originally from California and I did my undergrad degree in occupational therapy, as Grant said, and also a graduate degree, but then I went down a different road with public administration, so I combined healthcare and administration for the roles that I've been in in the last few years and I love it. I'm passionate about helping people develop as well as ensuring that we have a top-notch health care system.

Speaker 1:

I love it. Now you got to unpack this and I'm going to say I'm a novice, so it's occupational therapy. I'm like all right, help me understand what is occupational therapy.

Speaker 2:

Occupational therapy is a health profession that focuses on what do people really want to engage in in their life? So we consider anything. Any purposeful, meaningful activity that you engage in is occupation. So when I wake up in the morning I'm brushing my teeth that's an occupation. I drive to work that's an occupation. I drive to work, that's an occupation. So when I'm injured or if I have a mental health aspect that is a barrier to me functioning well in those occupations, that's when an occupational therapist may be very helpful to intervene to help me get back to those occupations.

Speaker 1:

Man, you put that in such terms. I understood that. Yeah, you had a disruption in your normal flow of your occupation, as you said, and then what you do is help people get back on track, right?

Speaker 2:

Yes, they could have a stroke.

Speaker 1:

They could have been born with a developmental disability or they could have a mental health difference. And so we help you, to's say, for a number of years, let's say it was in healthcare finance, but now you want to go into a different occupation, and now you want to go into, let's just say, healthcare marketing, just to say so now you have this. Is that a similar disruption? Do you help people like hey, I got to get to another mindset, I'm not sure I've got some imposter syndrome happening here. I mean, hey, I got to get to another mindset, I'm not sure I've got some imposter syndrome happening here. I mean, is that something you also get involved?

Speaker 2:

in? No, and I'm glad you asked that so people could really be clear. So, but that taps into another one of my skill sets. I'm also an executive coach. So that person that's struggling with where do I go in my career, that's not a physical or mental disruption, that's more of I need to really make some good decisions in my life. So we're talking from an OT perspective. It's really related to my mental or my physical health. That other realm is maybe I'm just not feeling confident about myself, maybe I've got some tough decisions to make in my life and an executive coach and or a therapist a different type of therapist, a psychotherapist can help with those aspects.

Speaker 1:

I got it. Now I'm starting to get into your zone of genius. Give us an example of the challenges Like. Talk to me like as if I am a healthcare worker. I've now got a disruption that I've come across, but maybe I'm feeling a little bit apprehensive about potentially even working with you, because I'm not sure. However, yeah, I'm not brushing my teeth anymore, I'm not driving to work now, and now I've got to get myself back into a position where I can get into my normal routine. Talk to us about some of the challenges that you come across.

Speaker 2:

Sure. Well, individuals sometimes really get stuck and I'll really put my coaching hat on now and it's fun for me because I kind of combine my OT knowledge and my executive coaching knowledge but for that scenario it's really digging into what are your mental barriers for moving forward? Word Is it that you have a new skill set and you're afraid to use it? I just had a session with someone just prior to our discussion and they said I never finished my bachelor's degree and I'm afraid to tell people that because I have a good job. But I really am also afraid if I go back I might not be successful because I dropped out before. So that's something that's related to what you're saying, that we really have to understand well, where's the fear coming from?

Speaker 2:

And when I asked her that, she said people's perceptions. So we're going to take the next session and really dig into why does it matter so much about what other people think? What is it that you want to accomplish? She really does want to get that bachelor's degree. She really does want that feeling of accomplishment, but she's allowing others to really dictate how she feels about herself, and so many of us do that. We're living for other people's expectations rather than what is it that we need to do for ourselves?

Speaker 1:

You're speaking to the choir now. I see this so many times. I work with a lot of people when it comes to personal branding, right, and either there's one or two things Either they're ready to go, they're gung-ho, they're ready to engage, or they're just timid, they're just very unsure about well, grant, personal Grant I really don't want to put myself out there like that. But I say but you're here, you're talking to me and my job it's almost like the pool instructor, right. Well, you're here to learn how to swim, I'm going to have to put you in the pool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, got to get out there.

Speaker 1:

You got to get out there. So there's a lot of trepidation about that. They know that it's good for them Like no, I know I get it my. You know the CV, the resume, you know the in-person networking. I've got to put a layer on top of that and really tell my story. But to your point, I have all these interferes. I don't know how people are going to perceive me. Do I know what I'm doing? Am I going to look the way I need to look? There's a lot of uncertainty when it comes down to it.

Speaker 1:

They understand that it's good for you, but yet I'm not sure I can actually make it happen. What do you do, I mean? How do you, how do you begin to then unpack it to where they begin? Just that confidence and comfort level.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Well, just as with this young lady, where I would go next in our next conversation is really looking at what's the history, you know, where does it come from, where you're so concerned about how others feel, and is there an instance of you just move forward with something in your life and it worked out, and really helping people to look back and say, wait a minute, I was successful in that, I moved forward, it was what I wanted to do. So really using some previous successes because all of us have some to really build off of that and say, well, if you were able to do this, how about this? Another step is to help them make new commitments. And you know, when we learn about habits and habit forming, which OTs work on with people every day, coaches work on with people every day.

Speaker 2:

It's not the big chunks, but what's one thing you can do? So for this young lady, maybe one thing you can do is explore different programs. So just get online and start looking to see if something resonates with you that you could potentially make your goal. So that's not a huge chunk. That's not saying you're going to enroll next month, but you're just going to know what's out there. So I would say, taking steps that are really chewable, that people don't feel are big mountains, to be able to say, ok, I was successful in that one step, as well as looking back in the past and saying what did I do for myself that really did work out and build off of that, those are two examples that's a great example.

Speaker 1:

I use that a lot in a way that I ask people well, what were you doing five years ago and what did that look like? What were the challenges that potentially that you had five, or maybe you have to go back 10 years ago, and what I'm looking for is what I call is that incident? You know the challenging point? That was a challenge that you had to overcome to become the person that you are right now. And then a lot of times they realize, well, yeah, I was in a very challenging position. I overcame that, you know, and it was over time. It wasn't like I said, it wasn't just overnight, it was over time and that you got to this point. And that gave them confidence, like, ok, and I love what you also said about you have to have the goal.

Speaker 1:

What is your North Star? What are you really trying to accomplish? Let's not focus on the challenge so much. What are you trying to accomplish? Because the challenge is just something that's potentially in the way, it's an obstacle, right. But then you have this North Star that you read, the shiny object that you're trying to get to right. How important is it for you to get it and what's the path forward to get there. I'm going to come back to you. What was your challenging moment? I mean, you said you went back and retargeted and retooled and then came out with this whole new stuff. What was your incident that caused you to do that?

Speaker 2:

You know, it's just interesting, a lot of it was by default. So sometimes when you have a particular skill set, you may not even feel you can move in different avenues, but someone will see that climb that ladder and they're very eager to do it. And then there are those that I call the reluctant leader, where doors may be open and you have to choose whether you're going to go into them. And so I'm in that second camp where I've really just accepted and felt very blessed that people have said I'd like to give you this opportunity, and it really hasn't worked out well. When I've said, oh, I think I wanna go for that, that door would shut, and maybe because there was a blessing in another door that I didn't really recognize.

Speaker 2:

So I've been blessed with these opportunities where someone has said I want to give this to you. I was recruited into the organization that I'm in now because of the things that I started at a different organization, so being, I think, being open to those opportunities, having a different degree too. So we have a toolkit and the more tools that we put into it are the more things that we can build. And so starting with occupational therapy, but then adding public administration, opened so many more doors to me that I really didn't even anticipate.

Speaker 1:

What you said is golden. You built on yourself and added to what your capabilities were and then through that visibility, someone else saw value and I'm sure the people over there in Nova they're like, yeah, they did. I know you're doing some really cool stuff here in South Florida for a number of years. Talk to us about leadership and what do you see in the leadership realm that you feel that either A people aren't taking advantage of or, b, they may want to take advantage of, but then they just don't know how.

Speaker 2:

Yes, thanks for that leadership.

Speaker 2:

I'm so passionate about that and that's an area I write about, I speak about, and I think public administration led me that way.

Speaker 2:

But it also helped me to reflect on leadership positions I had had in the hospital that I didn't even know what I was doing from a leadership standpoint, but then I found out, oh okay, I was doing it okay, based on this information that I now have.

Speaker 2:

So I think openness to learning is so key for leaders. You know you talked about imposter syndrome and we work, in my current role as chief learning officer, with hundreds of leaders and so many of them say that they feel that, but they still took the position. So I feel having that openness to learn through mentoring, through sponsorship, where there's targeted efforts on a leader to help someone to grow and develop and to get into the positions. So networking, even though it's cliched and we say it all the time, it does matter when we connect and build relationships with people on that next level, because then they're looking out for us and then, when we do get those opportunities out for us, and then, when we do get those opportunities, never feeling that we have to have all the answers Leadership today, especially with technology. We cannot have all the answers, but it's really important to know what our gaps are and be able to fill them by using people around us effectively, as well as continuing to learn in that lifelong process.

Speaker 1:

Let me ask you this question because I like where you're going with this. Do you feel leadership is more? And you can answer this either way you like, but is it more behavioral or is it more knowledge base? Or maybe it's a combination of both?

Speaker 2:

I believe it's a combination of both.

Speaker 2:

I believe some people are born with inherent wonderful skills and socialized taught those wonderful skills, as I was, by my parents.

Speaker 2:

I knew leadership just by watching Sid and Lynn in my home and in the community and in the church and on their jobs they were very strong leaders. So that was my first exposure to leadership. But to me leadership is not only those positions of authority that you may get because of your skills or your academic degree or whatever, but it's influence and impact wherever you are. So I could be a bedside nurse I don't have to be a chief nursing officer and have huge impact. I can be an OT assistant I don't have to be the OT making the treatment plan and I can have a huge impact and influence. And when people harness that and really understand that power, no matter what role they're in, they are powerful leaders. But if I aspire to be in a position of authority then I need to really be open to continuous learning, gaining that knowledge, gaining those certificates, getting the degrees and having really strong emotional intelligence, which is not our degree. But if we don't know how to get along with people, we're not going to fare well in that position of authority.

Speaker 1:

It's so important that those things that you I don't know how you gain that through just formal education academically, when it comes to emotional intelligence, situational awareness, right, yes. And then in culture building, because dealing with people. I remember talking to my granddaughter about this as she was going to school. I said you know the most important thing you're going to learn, she said. She said what was it? Biology is it? I said no, it's how to work with people, understanding humanity and the different nuances that people come in, because it's all about not just who you know, as we've known, this is who knows you and how you can bridge those relationships.

Speaker 1:

Creating relationships, I feel has been one of the major challenges in the current generation and probably the next generation, because I think there's some dissonance there. But don't discount the fact, no matter how much knowledge you may have or accumulate, because information now is becoming a commodity A lot of people can acquire information. They don't necessarily have knowledge. Knowledge, I think it's applied knowledge, something that you can apply, that you can utilize, right, it's a skill set, right. But how are you going to do all that if you don't have the right relationships and what you're doing with occupational therapy and leadership and knowing how to not only talk to others, but talk to yourself. How?

Speaker 2:

do you?

Speaker 1:

communicate with yourself. How do you feel about those things?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's powerful. In our organization, our leadership framework has three components and the first one is lead self, the second is lead others and the third is lead results. So that combination really enables people to be successful. So we talk a lot in our organization about how can you be more effective in leading yourself, because if you don't understand yourself, your skill set, what your gaps are, you're not going to be a good team leader, because you're going to come in with your insecurities and your lack of confidence and making all your assumptions and being very biased, and these are the barriers to good team functioning.

Speaker 2:

So you have to lead self in a powerful way first, and I love what you said about it's not just who you know, but it's who knows you. That is powerful also. So you've got to push yourself out, and myself, as an introvert, that takes a lot, but I make an effort to get out into our hospitals so I connect. This week I was out at one in Central Florida still, but the culture is so different within the hospitals so I need them to get to know me and what we offer them at their facility. So it just we have to push ourselves out of our comfort zone sometimes in leading self.

Speaker 1:

A hundred percent on that. And it's hard. Just like going back to the analogy I talked about. You got to go into the water and, yeah, at first you're going to sink to the bottom, right, you try to figure it out right. Then you start to tread water, but you have a coach there that's helping you, so you're not going to drown. Someone is there for you. So Sandra is there with you. I'm not going to let you fall down, I'm going to let you. I'm going to show you how to tread water. Then I'm going to let you. You know, I'm going to show you how to tread water. Then I'm going to show you how to swim to the other side, then I'm going to show you how to swim back, and then you're going to start doing this on your own. You start to get your legs right, as they call it, you start to get your stride and in this new pool of experience, you start to find out how you navigate into these worlds and we all have moments where, like I've got to step out. I know this world very well, but I'm not sure about this other one. But change is always happening. These worlds are always revolving and changing in and out and you are put in a position where you have no choice. You have to move forward. You cannot stay stagnant. Change is inevitable and we cannot just sink back. We've got to pull forward.

Speaker 1:

I love the fact that you just said you're an introvert. I have found people don't even realize this about me I'm a natural introvert. I am. I'm a natural introvert, meaning I don't really need to interact to be okay with me. But I've learned over time how to be an extrovert and then how to even talk to introverts Like I know those feelings. You're in your comfort zone. I said I'm okay, right here, I'm fine, right. However, you have skills, you have knowledge, you have capabilities in which, if you don't share them, other people struggle. Because life is, I think, people is like being in a puzzle box and each person is a piece of that puzzle. You've got to share your color, your likeness, your shape with the others in order for the whole thing to come together in a tapestry.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and if we think about our personal purpose, if we're really here to help and develop people, as I am in my role, whether a therapist or the CLO or leadership leader, you have to be able to connect with people 100% on the connection.

Speaker 1:

Leadership is about connection. I just put a post out about that. Leadership is more about connection these days than just commanding people or telling people what to do. It's a collaborative fabric. Everyone has worth, everyone has talents and skills. Talents and skills, and you have to know yours and you got to know where they fit with other people. You have a very good skill set. Number one I love the way that you automatically made me feel comfortable and they're like you know what we can share. Let's share some knowledge and some experience. Let's share some things that we feel our audience, our shared audience of healthcare professionals that are out there. Maybe they're feeling a little bit vulnerable. I give the voice. I say I'm the voice of the voiceless. Let's talk about these things. As you just said earlier about occupational therapy, there's people out there. They may not even know these services even exist and how they can help them. Talk to us more about that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you know there's so many avenues to get occupational therapy services. So if you have a child with a disability that's in the school system, the therapy is an integral part free services by law in the school system and many parents do not understand that. Many people do not understand that most insurance companies will cover some therapy, whether it's occupational, physical or speech therapy. So as also they're shopping around for insurances, insurance coverage, they should ask those questions Does it cover for rehabilitation? If you're in a car accident and lose the use of an arm, you need occupational and physical therapy. So you need to know what your coverage is. It's also important to ask.

Speaker 2:

I'd also add that this, hopefully, will help people know this is a wonderful career. So many healthcare professionals may start in one area but then they want to shift, so they may already have the prerequisites for going to OT school if they're a nurse, for example. So it's an important career. Or they might be thinking how can I support my young person in my home? Know about health care positions that are not just nurses and doctors. We have all these other opportunities that are well-paying, positions that are so meaningful and rewarding that people just don't know about. So I hope someone's encouraged to think about occupational therapy as a career also.

Speaker 1:

I'm glad you said that, because the healthcare ecosystem is so vast yeah, corporate's just about all the other disciplines and industries within it. Whether you want to be in construction well guess what. Healthcare, construction happens all the time. I want to be in marketing? Marketing happens all the time, right? So you start thinking about fine, I want to go into finance Well, guess what. Finance big and healthcare. Yet they are challenged in healthcare with retaining people and workers and top talent. I think there's not a big awareness. People think healthcare to automatically think, as you just said, clinical, it's all clinical, right? Yeah, it's more than that.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I mean I have someone on my team who used to be a chief marketing officer, so this is his retirement gig teaching leadership. So, yes, so many different types of positions. It. It's just so vast and people need to recognize all the opportunities that are out there.

Speaker 1:

Let me ask you this because we're getting toward the end, but I want this because you are in the leadership space and think about all the different you know either clients you've had in leadership, things that you've done in the leadership realm, some of the common situations, the challenges that seem to be constant in that realm. That would truly help people on their track to make a better decision.

Speaker 2:

The challenges that people face within the health care system.

Speaker 1:

That's within the health care. Healthcare system just in leadership itself. Yeah, just this. This, this particular issue seems to be top of mind for a lot of people of leaders right now yeah

Speaker 2:

multiple things. One is adapting to AI and how to integrate it into their lives Well, the rate of information coming at them and the rate of change. So I think dealing with change in general is something leaders are dealing with. A third bucket that I can think of because we talk to leaders all the time, so we're hearing all of these things is dealing with five generations of workers in the workforce now, so I might be able to connect with a baby boomer one way, but a millennial I'm very insecure about. And then Gen Z. I have no idea what I'm doing. If I'm a leader, I might have those issues and not really understand how to adapt to different people, different generations, as well as the change that's coming at them and the integration of AI. Those are top three that I can think of.

Speaker 1:

Mac, you reminded me I remember going to a training about three years ago, maybe even further back, and what you just said about the generations. And the gentleman told his story just like this. He asked us point blank what does James Bond look like? And I'm like huh. And then he just had everybody kind of what does James Bond look like? Does he look like Sean Connery? You know, does he look like? Because James Bond has been four or five different characters over 50 years.

Speaker 1:

so are you talking to Sean Connery or are you talking to Roger Craig right?

Speaker 2:

are you talking to Roger Moore right?

Speaker 1:

you're talking to James or you're talking to Roger Moore. Right, you're talking to James Bond, but you're talking to a different flavor of James Bond. That's an interesting nuance. I mean, how do you, you know, as I think through that like wow, because everybody's going to come to your office and you're not really sure how they see James Bond, just as an analogy and then you have to get them to tell you how they see situations or awareness. Is that right?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that's part of the learning part. You know of my role, and what we really help people to understand is you have to be actively engaged in trying to figure things out and you've got to reflect on these aspects and then integrate them into your work. So that's our learning model within our system. So if we're not engaged in trying to figure it out, we're not going to be able to move the needle. We've got to read, we've got to go to workshops, we've got to talk to people. We've got to ask that person in the Gen Z generation what is it that you need to feel satisfied in your workplace? So to be curious enough and not make all these assumptions will help us to be better leaders 100% on that.

Speaker 1:

We're going to conclude. You know, our interview. This has been great. Before I leave you go, I want to make sure we know how to contact you. I'm like I'm sure you got 100,000 people just within your system and something like hey.

Speaker 2:

I got to get her.

Speaker 1:

I got to get her, I got to get in contact with her. What's the best way? Is it LinkedIn or another?

Speaker 2:

I'm on LinkedIn, yes, as Sandra Dunbar Smalley, so that's a great way to get in touch with me. That's probably the easiest. Excellent.

Speaker 1:

Excellent. And, of course, before I let you go, how did you feel? Now you've gone through the whole interview, how do you feel about your segment on the follow brand?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'm excited because anytime I can share information that might support someone else's development, it's a great opportunity. I feel you're a great host, so that made it very easy. But I think the questions really led to us maybe helping somebody else, and so that's always such a rewarding feeling, so I thank you for this opportunity.

Speaker 1:

No, thank you. I like to be of service and that's the goal. Are we being of service to our audience and they can take that to the next level? I've had several people tell me that they watched my show and it could have been two years ago. Like Grant, I saw you do an interview with a certain individual and then I had an actual interview with that person and, because of the information that was shared, I was able to get the job. I was able to get to another level and that made me feel good, because you never know how you're impacting someone else's life. This is beautiful and I know right now, sandy, you're impacting someone else's life. This is beautiful and I know right now, sandy, you're impacting someone else's life. This has been wonderful.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome, thank you.

Speaker 1:

And I want to encourage your entire audience to tune in to all the episodes of Follow the Brand at 5 Star BDM. That is the number 5 Star BDM B for brand, d for development infomasterscom. This has been wonderful. Thank you again for being on the show.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

You're welcome.